Nuclear families is a less evel than shoking disrespect and cruelty to the old we see here though
I'm not thinking of the generations being forced to live together, and both the young and old need special protection from the state, they both being especially vulnerable and dependent on others. (Plus I think the main problem is poverty and/or over-crowding - there's way too many people on this planet now.)
But I'm sure there's a middle ground, as the nuclear family scenario I outlined is (in my opinion) designed to accommodate the needs of a modern capitalist society and not people as such. (Or at least not most of them.) ie...
One person's high risk (to loan to, for instance), as their sudden loss of income (or death) requires the lender to get involved in sorting out the mess.
Two people are ideal, as it's many times rarer for them to both lose their incomes or die at once - there's usually the other to sort things out when shit happens.
While a functioning extended family may seldom if ever need to borrow from outside of itself, it having the possibility of being a self-sufficient economic unit, unlike just two people.
Therefore, there's been (in my opinion) a concerted effort to replace the extended family with the nuclear one, the result being that (in the West) debt is first build up by student loans, continued on with when that house in the suburb is bought, which is finally traded in for life in an old-persons' community of some kind, which possibly eats up any savings they may have made before they conveniently die.
That's a nice revenue stream for those receiving the interest, right? But what's everybody else working for? Just to survive with some sort of roof over their head?
i haven't ;ooked at the problem from this (monetary) position. you can easely be right, but... to be fully dependent from the family is not better, though. this is the shortest way to the worst of tyranny - domestic one. the truth lies in between, but did it ever exixst - the blessed golden mean? ;(
I am in no way a fan of tribal ways of life ;) The tribal system is based on total anti-individualism and to me, (in a certain way) individualism is almost a religion.
Oppression, loneliness, helplessness - all these works even better in a tribal or quazi-tribal sosiety than in capitalistic one, especially if you are looked upon as even a bit "strange" or a bit of outcast.
there is a splendid book about living in a real tribe:
That book doesn't deal with tribes which have adapted to living in the modern world though, which is the case here. 'Iwi' is the word for tribe in Maori, hence...
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site%3A.iwi.nz
Take your pick!
Hmmm - try this one: http://www.ngapuhi.iwi.nz/ Read the guest book - some of it's in English...
'pakeha' there refers to non-Maori - ie, I'm a pakeha.
I agree with you about the importance of individualism, but I don't see it as mutually exclusive in this case. And there's plenty of restrictions in a capitalist system - especially for the poor. Where do you live if you can't afford the rent?
I'll take a look, sure! tribal psychology is my favorite theme somehow.
but... there is nothing that good in the capitalist society.
but if you can't pay the rent, you'll live under a bridge, in a trash can, get to prison after all.
in a tribe in case you get into a serious conflict with the head of your household or the tribe in the whole - you are dead. fast and simple... in the best case, you are reduced to a non-human condition you can avoid here even living under a bridge (you can't always avoid it in the prison though).
I thought of this thread when I heard something about mental illness on the radio this morning. And I was able to find the archive for it, so listen here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0005/1580459/mnr-20080618-0627-Waatea_News-wmbr.asx) - about 1 minute into the recording. It's a very short piece.
A mental health commissioner says all New Zealanders could learn something from Maori about dealing with people with mental illness. Ray Watson says discrimination is one of the biggest challenges faced by those with mental health issues. He says many people still want to go back to the days when suffers were locked out of sight, but he doesn't see that among Maori. "Traditionally of course Maori communities are very accepting of difference, and so certainly in my experience in dealing with whanau and the hapu level or the iwi level Maori communities are very accepting of someone who's different in any way." Ray Watson says awareness campaigns like Like Minds Like Mine are having a positive impact.
Kind of the opposite of your: all these works even better in a tribal or quazi-tribal society than in capitalistic one, especially if you are looked upon as even a bit "strange" or a bit of outcast. comment, yes?
hmmm maybe I'm missing something, yes. I judge from what I've seen in my own life communicating with people loving in "simple" ways. in fact, I was someone slightly different and so beaten, humiliated and bullied in every possible way on a regular basis.
maybe I'm wrong somewhere extending "tribal ways" over anything that looks like primitive society... I have to give it a good thinking, yes. I'll do ;)
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branchandroot
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-31 09:35 am (UTC)Nuclear families is a less evel than shoking disrespect and cruelty to the old we see here though
I'm not thinking of the generations being forced to live together, and both the young and old need special protection from the state, they both being especially vulnerable and dependent on others. (Plus I think the main problem is poverty and/or over-crowding - there's way too many people on this planet now.)
But I'm sure there's a middle ground, as the nuclear family scenario I outlined is (in my opinion) designed to accommodate the needs of a modern capitalist society and not people as such. (Or at least not most of them.) ie...
One person's high risk (to loan to, for instance), as their sudden loss of income (or death) requires the lender to get involved in sorting out the mess.
Two people are ideal, as it's many times rarer for them to both lose their incomes or die at once - there's usually the other to sort things out when shit happens.
While a functioning extended family may seldom if ever need to borrow from outside of itself, it having the possibility of being a self-sufficient economic unit, unlike just two people.
Therefore, there's been (in my opinion) a concerted effort to replace the extended family with the nuclear one, the result being that (in the West) debt is first build up by student loans, continued on with when that house in the suburb is bought, which is finally traded in for life in an old-persons' community of some kind, which possibly eats up any savings they may have made before they conveniently die.
That's a nice revenue stream for those receiving the interest, right? But what's everybody else working for? Just to survive with some sort of roof over their head?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-31 06:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-31 11:23 pm (UTC)http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=whanau
And they have the marae (http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=marae) too, which acts as a base for those with ties to it.
No system's perfect, but I can see that as a viable alternative to the nuclear family.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-01 03:00 pm (UTC)The tribal system is based on total anti-individualism and to me, (in a certain way) individualism is almost a religion.
Oppression, loneliness, helplessness - all these works even better in a tribal or quazi-tribal sosiety than in capitalistic one, especially if you are looked upon as even a bit "strange" or a bit of outcast.
there is a splendid book about living in a real tribe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Valero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Valero)
It became a book of my life in a sense
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-04 10:39 am (UTC)http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site%3A.iwi.nz
Take your pick!
Hmmm - try this one: http://www.ngapuhi.iwi.nz/ Read the guest book - some of it's in English...
'pakeha' there refers to non-Maori - ie, I'm a pakeha.
I agree with you about the importance of individualism, but I don't see it as mutually exclusive in this case. And there's plenty of restrictions in a capitalist system - especially for the poor. Where do you live if you can't afford the rent?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-04 10:56 am (UTC)but... there is nothing that good in the capitalist society.
but if you can't pay the rent, you'll live under a bridge, in a trash can, get to prison after all.
in a tribe in case you get into a serious conflict with the head of your household or the tribe in the whole - you are dead. fast and simple... in the best case, you are reduced to a non-human condition you can avoid here even living under a bridge (you can't always avoid it in the prison though).
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-18 06:00 am (UTC)I thought of this thread when I heard something about mental illness on the radio this morning. And I was able to find the archive for it, so listen here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0005/1580459/mnr-20080618-0627-Waatea_News-wmbr.asx) - about 1 minute into the recording. It's a very short piece.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-22 07:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-25 10:07 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-28 08:33 am (UTC)A mental health commissioner says all New Zealanders could learn something from Maori about dealing with people with mental illness. Ray Watson says discrimination is one of the biggest challenges faced by those with mental health issues. He says many people still want to go back to the days when suffers were locked out of sight, but he doesn't see that among Maori. "Traditionally of course Maori communities are very accepting of difference, and so certainly in my experience in dealing with whanau and the hapu level or the iwi level Maori communities are very accepting of someone who's different in any way." Ray Watson says awareness campaigns like Like Minds Like Mine are having a positive impact.
Kind of the opposite of your: all these works even better in a tribal or quazi-tribal society than in capitalistic one, especially if you are looked upon as even a bit "strange" or a bit of outcast. comment, yes?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-01 03:55 am (UTC)maybe I'm missing something, yes. I judge from what I've seen in my own life communicating with people loving in "simple" ways. in fact, I was someone slightly different and so beaten, humiliated and bullied in every possible way on a regular basis.
maybe I'm wrong somewhere extending "tribal ways" over anything that looks like primitive society...
I have to give it a good thinking, yes. I'll do ;)